Episode 3

Welcome to Going Abroad, an original podcast by the Architects’ Council of Europe, supported by the Creative Europe Programme of the European Union. This series delves into the decisions, challenges, and lessons involved in taking an architectural practice abroad. Through conversations with architects from across Europe, we uncover strategies, share insights, and provide practical advice for navigating international collaboration.

In today’s episode, we turn our focus to the working process—exploring the dynamics of working across distances and partnering with local architects. To bring this topic to life, we’re joined by Lina Lahiri and Julia Knaak from Sauerbruch Hutton in Germany, Penny from Elytron in Greece, and Ray from Demicoli and Associates in Malta. Each of our guests brings a wealth of experience and perspective to the discussion.

Q: Lina and Julia, could you share reflections on the differences between working locally and internationally? Has technology had a significant impact?

---31:40---

LL - “I think the difference has become much smaller since we started to work, very much digital.”

“So we would have, client and consultancy meetings in Germany as well as with United States or Australia. They would all be online meetings, and we only need clients really for bigger presentations or workshops. So I think they're actually the difference between working, domestically and internationally has, been has changed a lot. It's much, they're much more similar. And, as I mentioned previous, I think the kind of accessibility to video conferences after pandemic has completely changed the way we are working and helped enormously.”

“And if it's in Berlin or if it's in, Dakar, it doesn't matter really. The the bigger difference is, of course, the the time difference. I've done 2 projects in Australia, and they have the challenge of the time difference, which, of course, is very different to the domestic work because the positive part is that you can work 24/7.”

“The negative part is, of course, that the team's overlap is not such a so big. So you have maybe possibility of 1 hour a day where you can meet before, we go to bed and they get up or vice versa. Versa. So there technology doesn't help quite yet.”

---33:36---

JK – “Technology is not really the we don't need to talk about it anymore. We we just use it. So COVID gave, gave it a good push, and we really use it, for all our projects, and it really helps to discuss quickly a subject and not to to to to to to to wait too long until the the next meeting is scheduled and also to avoid, reduce traveling, which is very important. We did, we calculated our carbon footprint, before, COVID and after, and it's not comparable, of course, so this is a very good thing. And, the main difference now with technology, I mean, during the COVID, let's say, the main difference was to understand working between 3 countries.”

---35:10---

Q: How would you describe the relationship between your firm and local architects? What are the financial and contractual considerations?

---35:26---

LL - “I think here it's key that you try to be as open as possible and discuss all different, possibilities beforehand.”

“We're very used to work in big collaborations internationally and have sort of, different options that one can do.”

“One can share the the design. One can divide it in time. So we would work more intensely in the initial design stages, and the local office would take over in the detailed planning or in the production drawings. We have, one big project where we are in a joint venture together with a local architect, for example, or we have several parts, but one of them and there, they do much more of the, regulations, the local regulations and the the sort of conversations with the ministry as a quite administrative job, and we do the design at this stage. I think there are so many options how you can work together, but it's really important that you make sure that both parties have the same intention and are on the same page that there's no sort of, yeah, unhappinesses because one has different expectations.”

“And this is the same for the payment. You know? Like, how do you split the fee? Who who gets what amount at what time? All of this has to be discussed preferably as early as possible to make sure that then by the time the contract, is in place, it's it's clear to everybody.”

---36:55---

JK – “So we have different, joint ventures and, of course, with different, participation according to, the the scope of work of each each of the offices. What is important is that, each office is is part of the the the of each phase of the project so that everybody feels responsible and also can can really follow-up. So, even if sometimes I mean, it depends. And, like, for France again, we push the the design very much to the early phases, so then we do an artistic super supervision. But we we are quite regularly I mean, we are regularly on the building side.”

“We would not, follow it from apart from from long distance. So this is still something that is important for us. And of course we want also, the contact architects to be implied in the early phases, not only for recommendation but also to really make them part of the design process. And, like, for example, we have in in, in, France, we also have projects where we don't have a local architect, but we have a very good, director of building site manager. So, this is where we spend much more time, of course, traveling and being on-site because we're the only architects, and we really we need to be sure that our architecture is trans transformed and and and and translated.”

“But, Yeah. We've usually, we are the mandatere, and so we are responsible from the beginning to the end, so from design stage to to the building side. And, ideally, we share this mandatera role also with our partners.”

---38:45---

Q: Penny, what makes working abroad unique compared to working locally?

---20:16---

“Working abroad, working abroad, it's it's unique. The the the challenges are unique compared to to local projects. The main difference is, first of all, that you have to understand and adapt to diverse regulation and standards and to understand the different cultural norms, the different business practices. And sometimes it's difficult, and which is very challenging for me that, most of this project, you have to work remotely.”

“So it's not easy to build trust with your client and your collaborators, comparing to a project that you do locally and you are face to face. I I've that's that's where I think. I think that these are the most important differences we're working locally, abroad instead of locally, international instead of local.”

---21:34---

---21:46---

“Technology plays a crucial role. And it's very good that we we have all these instruments, all these tools because technology, enable us to overcome the geographical distances and to have clear communication and manage the project in in the same level and efficiency details as if we work locally. So in this aspect, is there's no much different working locally or in distance. There are tools that everybody knows, like the video conferences, and there are other tools like project management software, Aconex, or collaborative platform, like, programs like Revit that allows us to communicate in real time and coordinate with the other disciplines, very effectively even if we work from distance. And, also, there are, these cloud storages and documents are platforms where in real time, you everybody can have access to the documents and have the latest version of it.”

“So I think that technology is is is really, really crucial, and, we need it in order to be able to to work, efficiently abroad.”

---23:29---

Q: And, how would you say the relation is between the local architects and the firm? 

---23:36---

“So far, in all our collaboration, we didn't have, any issues. I can say that we have excellent and very successful collaboration. We try hard.”

“We it's important to try to maintain an open communication and to respect the different work, the different, working styles. The, I mean and also the cultural perspective. So we have we try to be flexible. I think that's a keyword. And try to ensure that, our working relationship is always productive, and we respect our partners, and, we adapt their approach.”

“And we we try to to do not, have, unclear and, problems that and we try to solve them, right away in order to do not have any working problems.” 

---24:51---

Q: How do you handle financial and legal considerations in international collaborations?

---25:11---

“Well, it is very important to to have all these skills to establish a clear clear responsibilities and from the very beginning. All the the the the the roles of different parties have to be defined. We the what we have to do, the deliverables, the payment terms, all these must be cleared and be must be established from the very beginning. That help us to avoid any misunderstanding and that ensures to have a smooth project, progression. So far, we were very, how can I say, serious on that part”

---26:08---

---26:12---

“When somebody starts want to work abroad and has to prepare his agreement. I think the first of all, he has to consider if, for example, there is a current exchange.”

“So depending on the country, he operates. He has to clarify from the very beginning, which are the payment terms and define, the milestones and what every time that he has to invoice, etcetera. Then it's important to know very well the tax law. It is needed most of the time to have a local, consultant, a local expert regarding the the tax and, to figure out how to to avoid how to avoid to have double taxation also. Then it's important to know, under which legal framework is his contract.”

“Sometimes it's not under the the laws of the country. So this must be also clear. The contract should cover, critical aspects like confidentiality, liability, who has the intellectual property rights. As soon as the project finishes, it has to be clear, who has the ownership of the of the project. And then, we must have an insurance that covers international work in order to be protected, to the firm to be against potential claims from the client or from other sources.”

“In case that we have, employers in the foreigner country, we have to know very well the label law of the country. And, of course, when we enter to a new to a new country, we have to know if we have to have specific licenses and permits in order to be able to operate to this country. I think this covers most of them the most important legal issue that somebody has to face, when he wants to work to work abroad.”

---29:01---

Q: Ray, how do you approach relationships with local architects?

---15:40---

“Always excellent. Always very, very good. We never had problems with local architect.”

“Really, really good. No problem at all there.”

---16:02---

Q: What distinguishes working abroad from domestic projects?

---16:18---

“Well, I mean, the the first phase in the office is exactly the same. The process is the same.”

“It's just a different, different laws, different criteria. When we work in outside, we try and really study the local conditions and the history. I'm I'm very big on the roots of that country. We really study the history. Like, working in Libya, we didn't want to end up with a pastiche of kind of local elements.”

“We'd rather address the climate just like the the the Libya's wonderful, full of examples of, some really good buildings that have been done there, and especially the old ones. But I I got into the archaeology of the country, and I when I working in Libya, I even got into the Roman history where the Romans grew their grain all in Libya. And, there was Sabrata and Leptismania were important harbors that they shipped the grain to Austria, to Italy, and then distributed up and down the coast of Italy. So Romans already had this kind of big, shipping ship big ships that were 268 feet and actually produced harbors by digging behind the reefs. And this is what they did.”

“It was wonderful. And this is exactly what I did in Port Omaso. I just dug the land, and it's cheaper. So you learn a lot about, history. Teaches you a lot.”

“Also, the ground, the feel of the air, it's I always work deep, whenever I'm working in a country. I do a lot of research.”

---18:51---

Q: How did you manage long distance collaborations, was technology a factor?

---25:18---

“Well, I mean, COVID has brought along a whole different way of working. And, we're all very equipped for this, and we are working a lot, with many, many different people. We have some staff of our own who have moved to different countries, and we're working quite well with them, notwithstanding the distance. So it's it's it's great. I think it's positive.”

“However, when we're designing, I still like to sit around the table. When we're, I mean, studying a project, brand new project, and have a kind of good, team thinking and deciding how to go and which way to go. I I like it to be around the table. Maybe have someone online, but I'd like to be live, you know, and, around the table.”

---26:33---

Thank you for joining us on Going Abroad. We hope you found these discussions enlightening and inspiring. Stay tuned for our next episode, where we’ll continue exploring the multifaceted world of international architectural practice.